Health Reform We Support
Health reform is critical to the business community – businesses voluntarily pay over $500 billion every year for employees’ health insurance, and cannot afford the cost increases. We support reforming the health system with a simple three-pronged approach:
1) Get costs under control. Use an all-of-the-above strategy.
- Medical liability reform
- FDA pathway for biosimilars
- Health information technology
- Comparative effectiveness research
- Wellness and prevention
- Coordination of care and medical homes
- Pay-for-Performance reform
- Combating fraud and abuse
- Living wills and end-of-life issues
- Reinsurance
- Consumer-driven health options
- Small business pooling
- Administrative simplification
- Long-term care reform
- Tax parity: Let individuals/small business deduct the full cost of insurance expenses
Without spending a trillion dollars or raising taxes, we could implement these and many other reforms that would help us start to bend the cost curve.
2) Reform the insurance system.
- Eliminating the use of pre-existing conditions or health status
- Guaranteeing that any individual or entity will be issued a policy
- Guaranteeing that policies will not be revoked
- Place reasonable limits on rating differences
- Subsidies for those who cannot afford coverage
- An individual obligation to obtain coverage
For negligible costs to the taxpayers, we could make the insurance system work. Insurance companies support it. An individual obligation is necessary to the equation, and would raise billions for the government that could be spent toward subsidies for the poor. New rating rules would make the system fair for small business and the selfemployed.
3) Create a vibrant market place.
- Create a national all-inclusive connector/exchange that removes fragmentation
- Should allow individuals and businesses from anywhere in the country to enroll
- Should facilitate improved pooling mechanisms, choice, and competition
These three simple steps, at low cost to taxpayers, could make the insurance system work for everyone (thereby increasing access for the uninsured), improve our health care delivery system, and make serious progress toward controlling costs. They have support from a vast array of stakeholders. We don’t need a $1-2 trillion dollar possible government takeover of health care – we need simple, pragmatic reforms.
//Note: For those not coming in from Facebook puzzled by the non-germane and confused comments on our membership, here is more.
Aside from any one type of ideology, there is one simple fact of global economics that needs to be addressed. USA manufacturing is at a disadvantage on a globl basis when it competes in an international market against companies that do not have health care costs buried into the selling price of their products. They don't compete very well and the result has been the continung decline in manufacturing in the USA.
I don't really care how health care is funded so long as we get it off the books of business so that we can compete against companys that do not have health care cost built into their product prices. Some good examples are the Japanese and European car companies including Toyota, that would have a very difficult time competing in the USA if, for example, Chevrolet was free of its health care costs as Toyota.
We are engaged in a bitter internal dispute about health care funding while the rest of the world takes advantage of our internal dispute that ignores reality.
If you normalize the USA health care cost to the level of France, supposedly the world leader in health care outcomes, then France is actually kicking our collective butts in GDP per capita of hours actually worked. That suggests that the USA is actually a second rate manufacturing country that is drifting to third rate status.
Posted by: jmichael hennessy | August 10, 2010 at 12:46 PM
I saw few comments about Single Payer aka Improved Medicare for All. One negative the others positive. The negative was by someone who of course seems to think he knows the facts about Single Payer, which he doesn't. Visiting PNHP.org and SPANOhio.org will give you far more good information than you'll ever see in the press. They wouldn't dare print any of the facts revealed in studies that would actually convince voters to scream for this change. Obamacare is not the answer. In golf parlance, the putt was short and to the right. It sold out to the insurance companies which will never be motivated to give up the lucrative business they have. Max Baucus said Single-Payer is off the table. Why? Congress is owned by corporations and now the SCOTUS is also. A recent decision will allow corps. to buy any and every election with 'free speech' advertising to tar and feather anyone they can't buy. Woe is us if the Democrats can't stay on top this election and independents can't eventually rise above both parties.
Posted by: Bill Davis | August 07, 2010 at 06:01 PM
Andrew - The lie, which you are pushing, is that anyone who opposed the legislation which passed is against health care reform. There were/are a vast number of non-status quo solutions, many of which are better than the one that passed. (BP)
http://www.chamberpost.com/2010/03/ineffective-solutions---the-real-status-quo.html
Posted by: ChamberPost | March 31, 2010 at 08:34 AM
I saw the expensive commercials you ran in New Mexico prior to passage of the health care reform. Your organization urged New Mexicans to call Rep. Harry Teague to thank him for voting against the first House bill. Your story that the US Chamber of Commerce supports health care reform is a lie, and your ads now and during the Presidential election have made me want to boycott the companies that support the organization.
Posted by: Andrew Hsi | March 31, 2010 at 12:17 AM
Edward - We were for health care reform and still are -- what passed was a not a solution to the problem. Our interests are our member’s interest and the business community needs real health care reform to include cost controls. We support good proposals (see education yesterday) and oppose bad ones regardless of party origin. Our position on insurance reforms is quite clear, see above. You are the one making this about politics; we need it to be about health care. (BP)
Posted by: ChamberPost | March 30, 2010 at 08:54 AM
Instead of debunking a myth, you are attempting to create a new one, namely that you have been a positive actor in the healthcare debate. Because organizations like yours aligned themselves with the Republican agenda of sinking the Obama Presidency in its first year by non-cooperation, seeing reform has passed you now want us, the public, to believe you were neutral or even for healthcare reform. How much money did the chamber of commerce spend opposing insurance company 'reccisions' or other blatant anti-social practices?
Posted by: Edward Raymond | March 30, 2010 at 01:12 AM
So many differing opinions. As a small business owner I am perfectly happy with our current, albeit expensive, health insurance.
We are not rich, my wife and I only afford 1 car, we rent and do not yet own a home. We work hard and CHOOSE to purchase the best insurance we can. Now the government suggests we should pay 40% more to cover someone else who makes different choices and does not purchase their own insurance!?!?
We are very happy with our insurance, and it seems clear to me those who complain about their plans or cost have never experienced a health emergency - or they have and did not properly prepare. This is not the federal government's job, Americans take personal responsibility.
We have spoken to customers and friends from Canada, and Germany and have heard the horror stories of their health care systems. Long waits for necessary surgery, rationing of services, etc. Those of you that envy Canada's health care - you are welcome to go there anytime.
As an American patriot I respect the Constitution of the US and the principles contained therein. Government intrusion into MY choice of health care is unconstitutional, and our founding fathers understood these types of intrusion to be a primary cause of corruption where only 'connected' businesses and individuals get to play the game.
This attempt at forcing socialist schemes down our throats is further proven unconstitutional as corruption is ALREADY present in it's creation. Back room deals, bribes, special inclusions, special exclusions, all to garner votes for something should be a big RED FLAG to anyone paying attention that this bill is not in the best interest of American citizens.
I do not agree with the chamber's positions fully, but I do agree with their opposition to the current health care bill.
Anyone who is for this health care bill - do yourselves a favor and read a copy of the US Constitution. You can find it online. You will be amazed at the work and dedication the founding fathers did to give us what rapidly became the best and strongest country in the world, one based on small government and personal responsibility. There will be no doubt in your mind that this current bill is unconstitutional. If after reading it you disagree, then perhaps you do not deserve all the blood, sweat and tears that went into the founding of this great country and our Republic.
Posted by: CJC | March 13, 2010 at 12:03 PM
It seems to me that everything you listed as supporting is in the bill. I can't figure out why you're so opposed to it. I understand you're planning to spend $1M a day to stop it. What part of the bill do you oppose so strongly?
Posted by: John Springer | March 12, 2010 at 02:03 AM
I think your suggested reform ignores a few major issues:
1. What do we do with all the people now receiving free medical care, primarily in emergency rooms? Right now the insured-sick are paying for them through higher fees, even though many can afford insurance. Should we turn them to the streets to die? Continue this crazy subsidy? Require them to get insurance if they can afford it?
2. So how do you propose preventing the looming bankrupcy of Medicare without addressing Medicare Advantage subsidies to insurance firms?
3. Don't you think the health insurance companies will just all flock to a "low regulation" state - just like the credit card companies did with Delaware? I certainly would hate for health insureance to be as poorly regulated as credit cards!
Posted by: Greg | January 20, 2010 at 11:15 AM
Most email you may receive are negative because people are always quicker to criticize than to compliment, so let me be a voice of encouragement. America appreciates your stand along fight for freedom and liberty.
Posted by: Diane | January 20, 2010 at 10:10 AM
The Chamber's supposed objections to the Senate healthcare bill are nothing but nitpicking around the edges. And they endorse the lie that "a significant percentage of deaths in the United States are associated primarily with modifiable, lifestyle-related behaviors" is founded on the deliberate scientific fraud of using lifestyle questionnaire studies that ignore the role of infection, as well as other important material evidence, in order to falsely blame smoking and lifestyle, and promote a political agenda of tyrannizing over peoples' lives.
Posted by: Carol | January 16, 2010 at 03:13 AM
The US Chamber of Commerce's health care proposal is as wrong as the Obama/Soros health care fiasco. Both include fascist/social;ist idealism, with government involvement leading the "utopian" parade. All government involvement in the private sector is wrong, unconstitutional, and a primary source of corruption, with the well-connected corporations monopolizing the samll entrepreneur. Get government completely out of the health care field (and all other private industry), and let the capitalist system do what it does best -- lift the "little guy" up by virtue of letting the "big guy" lead the way in free competition. By constitutional decree, our government is but an umpire, not a participant, in the affairs of the people. One government-imposed and led health care system is no better than any other. Put government back in its proper, constitutional place (as judge/arbitor of existing criminal law only) and let freedom ring. Laissez-faire capitalism is the only system that has ever worked in health care or any other human endeavor in the long history of mankind. look it up. gerco@pacbell.net.
Posted by: reeves | January 08, 2010 at 05:58 PM
Well, no bill that comes out of Congress is ever perfect. That is what happens when you have 535 cooks in the kitchen.
Posted by: Donald | January 07, 2010 at 11:33 PM
Donald - Yes there are individual elements in bill(s) that we support, but in the end you have to do an overall analysis of the entire product. Please see our letters on the House and Senate versions. (BP)
http://www.uschamber.com/issues/letters/2009/091105hr3962.htm
http://www.chamberpost.com/2009/12/key-vote-letter-opposing-the-patient-protection-and-affordable-care-act.html
Posted by: ChamberPost | January 07, 2010 at 08:07 PM
One thing I find interesting is that most of the items listed above in Section 2 (Eliminating the use of pre-existing conditions or health status
Guaranteeing that any individual or entity will be issued a policy, etc.) are in the current health care bill. So the Chamber is lobbying against a bill that, according to their own website, they support.
Posted by: Donald | January 07, 2010 at 07:06 PM
People will remember the U.S. Chamber for doing nothing to reform a bad health care system that needed invention long ago. I have a small business and insure all of my employees. You are only trying to protect the selfish employers who don't care. At a time when leadership was necessary, the U.S. Chamber did not lead. You don't speak for the average small business person.
Posted by: Ted | January 01, 2010 at 07:29 PM
Who runs the US Chamber of Commerce?
Who tells this agency to tell Americans that buying American is not a good thing?!
Who is the US Chamber of Commerce to oppose healthcare reform??
Does the US CHamber of Commerce believe in the "free market" ?? If so, why did it not yell and scream when TAXPAYER money was given to private business to stay open, after all the greedy SOB"s got thiers didnt they!!!
the US Chamber of Commerce needs to be more worried about Americans instead of worrying about Chinese, Japanese, Mexicans, Europeans or Canadians, they have health care, lets start looking out for Americans for a change!!!
Posted by: grape | December 28, 2009 at 12:04 AM
Funny but I have missed, for decades now, your advocacy of Health Care Reform. For that matter I keep missing your advocacy of ANYTHING. I do however take note of your consistently negative messages as presented in your commercials.
Truly sad that an organization I grew up viewing as a beacon has degenerated to a black hole for progressive ideas.
If you really have ideas that might benefit the citizens of this country, including your members, you might consider using your considerable lobbying powers to actually promote reform rather than dumping on others' attempts to reform.
Posted by: JoeRational | December 15, 2009 at 09:50 AM
Your "FACTS" page says that it's a myth that "The U.S. Chamber opposed health care reform and wants to maintain the status quo." But your view of reform is so narrow that you are spending oodles of $ to air tv ads against current health care reform proposals, which are moderate at best. Do you not care that 45,000 people die each year for lack of health care insurance? {See Harvard study at http://www.harvardscience.harvard.edu/medicine-health/articles/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-lack-health-coverage} If 1,000 people died last year in the U.S. from a sensational terrorist attack, that event would once again shake and transform our society. But if we do that 45 times over, through our own neglect and unbridled self-interest, your response is to put your $ into tv ads opposing efforts to reduce the number of people who die simply because they were dropped by their insurance companies, had pre-existing conditions, or couldn't afford coverage. Next time you bust a myth on your Facts page, don't mince your words so carefully. Face this fact: you would let thousands of people die if it would improve your members' bottom lines just a little . . . . Shame for that. But THANKS for providing a forum for all views.
Posted by: CRC | December 12, 2009 at 03:50 PM
I am a chamber member and do not like your stand on the public option. The health insurance industry business model is based on making money by refusing service to those who need it most. They are in the business of making money not keeping health care costs down. There is a reason why most of the other industrialized countries who provide their citizens health care do not use health insurance. They have been doing this for 40 years and we can learn from them.
Posted by: Diane Norland | December 09, 2009 at 08:42 PM
I hate your commercials. I am no longer watching any news programs because of the constantly being sickened by the lies told in your ads. I am no longer a member because of your stand on an bill that will save lives. Your stand on this issue will only kill people.
Posted by: David Modica | December 05, 2009 at 08:01 AM
I cant believe some of these comments that these people think a single payer system or government run Health Care is the answer. I think alot of these people are NOT informed on what really is in this Health Care bill. Or who will really be picking up the tab. If passed it will HURT our care, put our country into MORE debt, and cause a burden for all with higher taxes. I think that what the Chamber is saying is CORRECT. We can make changes to the Health Care System we have now to help others get insurance and get rates down, without totally CHANGING OUR SYSTEM.
I cant believe that The Chamber of Commerce was kept out of this Job Summit being held by the administration. Small buisnesses are a large part of regrowing our economy.
Posted by: Thank you | December 03, 2009 at 01:48 PM
Your commercial on television against health care reform is nothing more than sensationalism. You truely know that you have allowed powerful manipulation of emotions to be used in place of reason. You also know that small business can only flourish because of the strength of our communities and our country at large. Without a healthy community there is no basis for our small business to operate. Your commercial's inflammatory prodding to hold onto whatever you can keep for yourself, regardless of what is going on around you, reflects on the Chamber's lack of understanding that what is good for our fellow man is what is good for business.
Posted by: Marilyn | December 01, 2009 at 09:59 PM
I just heard that my sister-in-law in the Portland, OR area was in the hospital for 2 and a half weeks with the H1N1. Guess what? Her insurance does not pay anything until she has paid $10,000! That is outrageous. It is time for the average American be treated like as human and not as second class citizens. That is why health reform is necessary and why we need a public option. If we have to pay for our own insurance, we should be able to get something that is not going to bankrupt us all in the name of the almighty greenback going into some CEO's bank account.
Posted by: Brenda | November 29, 2009 at 07:19 PM
The US Chamber does not oppose health care reform – it is critical to the business community, for businesses pay more than $500 billion on employee health annually. The chamber supports getting costs under control, reforming the insurance system and creating a vibrant market place. Inform someone today! We should proactively combat negative comments, and support the US Chamber’s Fan Page http://www.facebook.com/uschamber?ref=ts
Posted by: Audrey | November 24, 2009 at 02:03 PM
Americans without access to health care or being bankrupted to obtain care is a national disgrace. I believe there is one obvious point not being discussed. Health Care Insurance being sold for a profit is fundamentally immoral. To return greater profit to shareholders, care is denied. Do we all need to experience this firsthand before we realize the importance of this or can we learn from the experiences of our fellow Americans?
How did we ever become so economically contorted that we argue that essential measures for someone's life should be "market driven?"
This is why a public option is essential.
Posted by: Judith Marie | November 23, 2009 at 02:25 PM
When the rest of the industrialized world provide national health care for about half the cost of health care in the USA with both children and adults living longer it is clear proof that a national health care system with a public option is the ONLY logical and financially practical way to protect OUR health.
EVERY Year my insurance costs go up and my coverage goes down. Every year my insurance policies reflect some sort of reduction in coverage. When and if I have a claim I am at the mercy of an insurance company to decide whether my policy applies or not. Even my insurance agent is unable to tell me what will or will not be covered. This is supposed to be better(?) than a national health care system where I can go to a higher authority if I feel my rights have been denied?
With insurance there is no higher authority to go to for help. The less they pay the higher their profits. Where is THEIR motivation?
Health Care will cost over a trillion dollars? How many trillions of dollars in profit do the health insurance companies make?
How dumb do they think we are? How dumb are we?
I don't want health insurance. I want health assurance. I'll never find that in a policy.
Posted by: Jack Murphy | November 22, 2009 at 04:37 PM
When you crossed the line and made a POLITICAL DECISION to DIRECTLY INFLUENCE the FUTURE LAWS of the United States of America you became a
POLITICAL ORGANIZATION rather than a business organization.
We own a small business and we intend to join the local Chamber of Commerce (where there are many Insurance Agents and an Insurance Agent is on the board). They have no more right to speak for us in Congress than they have to steal our vote in the poll booth.
Posted by: Michael McColgan | November 22, 2009 at 03:04 PM
For all the Kool-Aid drinkers on the right and Left, I recommend reading "Health 'Reform' Gets a Failing Grade. The changes proposed by Congress will require more draconian measures down the road. Just look at Massachusetts. by Dr. Flier, Dean of the Harvard Medical School.
This is non-political and shows that the proposed "Reform" will do more to lower quality and increase cost than doing nothing.
Posted by: John Chik | November 19, 2009 at 06:17 PM
Terry - You are quite wrong. Our members want to provide health insurance coverage and they also want reform to contain costs. (BP)
Posted by: ChamberPost | November 19, 2009 at 03:08 PM
i take extreme offense to your television ads against the administrations health plan. all you give a darn about is that your members do not lose one cent off of their profits, and can operate as cheaply as possible. if your member businesses had their way, they would not pay one cent toward health insurance coverage, retirement, sick leave or any other employee benefits. you all make me sick and you are as bad as the 'over 60' group.
Posted by: terry olson | November 19, 2009 at 01:15 PM
Please stop your ads against Baron Hill-Indiana.
He voted the way he nedded to so get over it.
Please take those ads off the air in Indiana.
Posted by: Randi Pearson | November 13, 2009 at 08:39 PM
What is the cost and who willbear it? will it be the taxpayer or the consummer with higher premiums. Remember their is no such thing as a free lunch and the Chambers plan is going to cost money.
the problem with Health Care Reform is that the debate has become idologicial instead of economic. If it goes back to economic we, then make the proper comparisions and hopefully the right decisions.
Posted by: Gennaro Irace | November 11, 2009 at 05:58 PM
Without a public option, it is not real insurance reform. It is just a massive giveaway of tax dollars to the insurance industry. The U.S. Chamber of Congress is on the wrong side of history.
Posted by: David | November 09, 2009 at 09:35 AM
Also, clearly nobody here actually owns a business otherwise they would understand the economics of what is being proposed and the eventual additional loss of jobs.
Posted by: I dont want Pelosi to take my money and job | November 05, 2009 at 11:57 PM
Thanks for giving a realistic solution to a large problem. Amazing to me that the people her are willing to trust Pelosi and Barney Frank with their own and children's future. A public option is nothing more than the beginning of government control with corresponding drop in quality.
Posted by: I dont want Pelosi to take my money and job | November 05, 2009 at 11:53 PM
Thanks for being honest - this government reform will cost Americans more, not less - it just shifts who pays for it and allows some to continue free loading off those who work hard every day.
No, I don't make six figures, but I don't expect someone who does to pay for my food, clothes, or medicine. I believe in self responsibility - I take care of me, you take care of you and we are all better off. There is no free lunch. There is no socialist utopia.
I'll donate to my church, Red Cross, Salvation Army and let them (more efficiently and more effectively) take care of those less fortunate. Any time government gets involved, waste and fraud takes over and we lose our liberty.
Let FREEDOM ring!
Posted by: Derrick S | November 05, 2009 at 11:48 PM
As like others I am repulsed by your adds and am also starting a new business and will not join the chamber in my area. At least as long at any of that money goes to your lobbing efforts. I am a small business and do not see the benefits of being a member. Your support on this issue shows me an many other small business people that you do not care about us. You care only about the big insurance companies will benefit from no reform. Last year and now you are against unions because of the cost. You fail to realize that in other countries companies do not have to pay for health care because it is public. Yes taxes are higher but health care cost are much lower. From now on you will see no dues from me in the near future. I hope this organization fails and looses it big members.
Posted by: Nick Crane | November 05, 2009 at 08:47 PM
As a senior citizen I find your ad's on health care reform revolting and tasteless. You should stop using scare tactics in your attempt to undermine the health care reform. Please be responsible and at least factual when reporting on the issues; I'm not interested in your personal opinions.
Posted by: Maryam Ra'oof | November 05, 2009 at 01:01 PM
I object to your misleading advertisements on Health Care reform. Now that AARP is supporting reform I suppose it is fair to say that the Chamber of Commerce is against old people! Maybe you should change your ads to say that more clearly.
Posted by: Phil Blackwood | November 05, 2009 at 02:02 AM
It's abhorrent for the Chamber to take a position on health care in favor of allowing 48,000 Americans to die every year simply from lack of insurance and on the environment that is designed to relegate America to the back of the Green Economy bus. Be compassionate. Think long term. We'll all be better off.
Posted by: BLinMemphis | November 04, 2009 at 09:32 PM
The US COC’s is blurring the lines of healthcare reform with its current media advertisements. Healthcare/pharmaceutical costs are outrageous. Insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and medical intuitions have a slew of lobbyist fighting against reform. It is my opinion that if US COC was interested in American public and small businesses they would have fought for some type of reform before now.
The US COC is only interested in selling memberships to its defunct organization.
Posted by: GKT | November 04, 2009 at 08:13 PM
Shame on the US Chamber of Commerce for their latest rounds of commercials attacking health care reform! Besides the misinformation, the tactics are horrible. There are enormous problems with the insurance industry - notably, it operates like the Mafia (except that when one paid "confidence" money, you could be sure your place of business would NOT burn down). Insurance is a license to steal and the Chamber clearly gives it tacit consent for the industry's tactics.
While growing businesses is always a good thing, the overall ethics of business in this country needs to take a new approach - one where it is no longer acceptable to not do the right thing. Furthermore, the tactics of the Chamber are deplorable! The scare tactics and outright lies in your commercials are unacceptable.
All citizens in the United States should have single payer insurance. Anything less is a bandaid to what happened to health insurance and all of the chaos can be laid at the feet of the insurance industry.
All Chamber members should re-think their memberships.
Posted by: J. Smith | November 03, 2009 at 08:16 PM
Thanks for getting the facts out to Americans that are being lied to by the Administration, most Democrats, and the liberal media. MORE Common Sense and less Taxpayer money. Heck, their numbers of 47 million Uninsured aren't even correct...see these links for the real government stats:
http://keithhennessey.com/2009/04/09/how-many-uninsured-people-need-additional-help-from-taxpayers/
Posted by: Logical Patriot | November 03, 2009 at 09:21 AM
Just resigned my membership in the Chamber of Commerce. Tired of lies and obstruction of initiatives that would help working people and the country. Was only a member to help local business but it's not worth it! Its not just about money people, its about lives. Encourage you to leave the Chamber if you are a member and vote out Republicans.
Posted by: Doc H | November 02, 2009 at 09:06 PM
Why don't you want American citizens to have an option of who insures them? Single payer has shown to have better outcomes in other countries for less the cost.
Posted by: EndTheEcho | November 01, 2009 at 12:07 PM
Californians can now choose between 6000 different plans. Yet we have one of the highest rates of uninsured in the whole country. We could scrap all of them and replace them with one public, affordable plan.
Posted by: alfredo | October 31, 2009 at 05:41 PM
it's time you folks stop lying about your membership numbers, i imagine you have some very questionable info regarding health reform and climate change as well
Posted by: Dave | October 31, 2009 at 03:45 PM
The public option is the only way to really contain insurance costs. What you fail to consider is that most businesses will benefit enormously from the public option if it is open to all Americans, employed and unemployed. We are ALREADY paying for the uninsured in emergency rooms everywhere, and these costs come directly out of our insurance premiums in order to help hospitals balance their budgets. Why should we also be paying for huge executive salaries? AND why should our helath care be traded on the stock market? Doctors, hspital workers, and insurance company employees should all make a good salary, but why on earth should there be a profit motive tied to the health of American citizens?
Posted by: nan galbraith | October 31, 2009 at 11:39 AM
Stop lying about your membership. No one will ever believe uou again.
Posted by: carmelita harrison | October 31, 2009 at 11:10 AM